Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:02 Hey guys. It's Penoza here with the More To Life Real Estate Investing podcast, where we help you get more to life through the power of real estate investing. I wanted to take a quick minute here this morning and deliver this solo, um, factual interview with myself, um, about how grateful I am, the support, uh, and feedback and positive reinforcement and support through all of our listeners since we started this podcast has been incredible. Um, we just surpassed a year in recording our episodes. We're on episode number 41, so we've delivered 41 episodes in that first year. And you know what? Amazing, amazing statistics I want to share with you, and again, super grateful for this. We're just at 11,135 lessons in our first year of recording. So, like almost, uh, like crazy numbers that I never thought, you know, that I would see a year ago when we started this podcast.
Speaker 0 00:01:13 I hadn't, I really didn't know what to expect other than I wanted deliver some great content. Um, obviously all the knowledge I have 11 years being in the business, plus bringing on some amazing speakers that, you know, we've done. And it's indicative of the feedback I'm getting from listeners and whatnot on, on how they're enjoying, uh, the information, the episodes as they roll out, uh, week after week after week. So, you know what another p uh, piece of information we're just in the last 90 days, we're at almost 5,000 listens, which is incredible. And again, guys, I'm super, super grateful, um, for all the support and positive feedback that we're getting. So I'm gonna continue pushing and I want to continue putting out some great content. I mean, some of the, some of the guests we've had have been incredible sharing their knowledge in the industry, right from the dos and don'ts to some great tips to their experience, the mindset component of all this.
Speaker 0 00:02:18 And, you know, failing forward and, uh, just sharing everything they've been able to accomplish, some great successes they've had that obviously you can put in your toolbox and, and do the same, or, uh, just help you in general. So that's the goal here, is just deliver that great content that we've had and continue to help you. On that note, um, again, thank you so much. It's been a great first year. Accomplishments have been superb, and I'm over the moon grateful for, for all your support. Continue to leave our comments and rate us on iTunes and everything. It helps modern podcasts like us. It, it obviously goes a long way, and we'll continue to put out some great content, Great, great guests. Uh, and we look forward to tripling what we've done this first year in our second year. On that note, let's get into this next episode.
Speaker 0 00:03:11 Cheers. Hey everyone, it's Adrian Penoza here with the More to Life Real Estate Investing podcast, where we help you get more to life so you can start living your power through real estate investing. Our guest today is James Burton. James earned a bachelor of English from Queens University in 2006, and subsequently joined a leadership development role at Tellus in Toronto. He started raising investor capital and inquiring Toronto real estate, which led him to leave Tellis in 2008 to pursue the development of rental properties fulltime. After co-founding Percy Ellis, he has since completed more than 25 successful projects. James Key expertise now includes value acquisitions, project planning and financing, multi-unit rental design, urban and public realm design, creating community benefits and municipal approvals outside of work. James spends times with his wife and pups reading on a wide range of subjects from latest in science to ancient history, creative writing, experimenting with land landscape design, and sailing his 50 year old laser inherited, uh, from his dad. James, welcome to the show. Thanks for thanks for being on our show today.
Speaker 1 00:04:42 Oh, thanks for having me, Adrian. Thanks for the lovely intro.
Speaker 0 00:04:45 Yeah, it sounds like you're pretty busy. You got a lot of balls in the air and for such a young guy. Um, so congratulations on obviously your success thus far. Thank you. Um, why don't we get right into it. Um, tell us a little bit about your journey, where you came from, where you are, where you're going, and kind of everything in between.
Speaker 1 00:05:04 Sure. Okay. I like it. Jumping right into it. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, don't mind, uh, if I correct you, do I on one item?
Speaker 0 00:05:13 Go ahead. <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:05:15 I did my Bachelor of engineering and electrical and computer engineering at Queens, not English, although, you know, <laugh>, I could have been just as good and probably more interesting.
Speaker 0 00:05:26 Sorry about that. Our, our team put this together and I was
Speaker 1 00:05:29 Just, No, not at all. Not at all. I was envisioning what my life would've been, uh, while you were speaking. If I had it done in my ba, my bachelor of English probably would've allow me in a different direction,
Speaker 0 00:05:39 Right?
Speaker 1 00:05:40 So, um, during that, that degree in engineering at Queens, I started to get interested in, in more interested in real estate than I, than I already was. And I already was interested because my parents bought me for my 16th birthday, the book, uh, The Wealthy Barber, and, um, great book, Everyone should read it. And it struck me as a kid, as all this information that should be taught in schools that wasn't being taught about just finances and banks and leverage and sort of practical life skills. Um, and there was one chapter in it about real estate investing. It wasn't very deep or very long or all that insightful, but it just, it, it opened up my eyes to the power, potential power of leverage that no, uh, kids were being taught. And I just thought, Wow, what a concept that, you know, isn't being taught in schools.
Speaker 1 00:06:33 And it really kind of just stayed with me. And so through university, I researched, read books, I went down to the states to a few, uh, conferences in real estate development and investing mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And was just convinced that as soon as I did graduate, you know, my parents convinced me I shouldn't just bail out on university to start, which I was pretty much prepared to do that I should have this fall fallback plan of, of a degree. Um, but I was convinced I would find my way into the business of fixing and flipping or some kind of real estate something, uh, through, yeah, that book. And then through the readings I did through university, you know, after hours in, in the subject matter. So that was my beginning. That was what kind of set me down this path. Um, so I did graduate, I did get a job in engineering at Tes, um, great company, you know, to work for with great people.
Speaker 1 00:07:30 Everything was great about it, but it, it wasn't, you know, my, my passion. So in the after hours I managed to buy, uh, foreclosure from Scotia Bank. Bit of a fluke that it was a foreclosure, it was just listed on mls, like, so nothing too, too special there. I had a realtor and, uh, it was vacant and it had been really run down and dilapidated. And I thought, Okay, here's the opportunity. It was a good price. And I, I fixed that, um, that house up more or less myself with the help of, um, lots of friends came to help me. My brother-in-law helped me a ton. My parents, my mom was painting. Uh, we just, and I went to Home Depot to learn all kinds of different, different trades. Uh, bought all tools, even the book, Home Depot 1, 2, 3. That's how I like, learned how to do showers and toilets and roofs and, um, tiles and, you know, wiring, three-way switches.
Speaker 1 00:08:28 Uh, so even though, you know, my schooling was electrical engineering, that's not what you learned in, in engineering. You learn about micro chips and things, so, right. I, I, uh, I kind of figured out how to do the electrician, uh, role so that, you know, and, and then 2000 end of eight was when the, the recession sort of started happening in the US and it kind of trickled into Canada. And, you know, what I thought was gonna be profitable, the profit started dwindling, and it was nervewracking because the monthly carrying costs were a few thousand bucks. And, um, it it all of a sudden, you know, in one little tiny little recession, and I say little cause in Canada, it was relatively small. It was big in the states, but, um, it was, it was nerve-wracking. So I sold for a much smaller profit than I had, uh, started to believe was going to be the case.
Speaker 1 00:09:19 And this is what got me thinking about rental. This is when I kind of went, Okay, I don't really want to be in a position where I've completed this asset. It's on the market, it's draining, you know, the profit's getting eroded monthly. There's no clear end to this growing disaster, and it's not a fun place to be. And so after that, um, I, I, I was, it was clear to me, I need to find something that has rental income, and therefore, if it goes well, and, and there's some, you know, it could be sold and a profit could be made in a shorter term, great, but if not, it's okay. You know, you can kinda wait and make more improvements or do something else while you wait for a market to recover or just from, for, for the cash flow to make a difference. And that's when I went and I got a, I bought a sort of duplex down on Duffin, um, in a more rentable area mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:10:16 <affirmative>. And it had an opportunity to split one of the two units into a third unit and add a kitchen. And that sort of marked the real beginning of what is now Percy Ellis figuring out how to drive, uh, rental income in small assets that other people weren't seeing or the market wasn't seeing or recognizing. Right. So that's like the beginning. And from there, I had a few friends recognize what I was doing, offer to, you know, chip in 50 grand here and there. Uh, that din project went well. And, um, we, I, I bought one or two more, and a couple of their friends, and then a couple of their friends, and then my mother's friend's, daughter's husband, who's now my 50% business partner, um, Emory Daniels, so we haven't even mentioned yet. So he's gonna, he's gonna be like, Where was I for the first, where, where, why didn't you talk about me a little bit?
Speaker 1 00:11:18 <laugh>, uh, he became an investor on one of those early projects after we, um, did well on that one. It, the address was 9 93 Gerard Street East. It was, uh, it was another foreclosure, td, but again, not because I was necessarily seeking out foreclosures, it was on mls. It just happened to be one. And, um, kind of really just run down house that we turned into a triplex. Um, went well. And after that he said, Listen, like let's formalize. Let me, I want to be a, you know, a managing partner. He was our, he was doing renos of plexes in, um, little Portugal, uh, and in little Italy area. And so it was a nice fit. Uh, he had accounting and construction experience. I had this sort of money raising, um, and multi-unit conversion experience and ideas. And together it was, it was a good fit.
Speaker 1 00:12:16 We, we since realized we're polar opposites people in every way and personality and sort of, we can only really agree on the big things. And that's why we've been successfully partnered for, uh, I guess 13 or 14 years now. But, uh, so with him, we were able to kind of grow and, uh, when we saw opportunities for a little bigger project here and there, it seemed reasonable. And we acquired a couple of larger projects, and it just sort of organically grew from there. Um, incrementally there was, you know, some of the jumps, they feel big to us, but they probably don't look that big. Um, but our first four story project, so exiting part nine of the building code, entering part three of the building code is a really big deal. Um, going from three stories to four stories. So our first project in part 3, 180 9 Sheridan Avenue was really, uh, challenging.
Speaker 1 00:13:14 We learned a lot. Um, and then our first project with an elevator was also a big deal. That's sort of, it's more than just the elevator, but I guess it, it signifies a full scale mid rise apartment building. Um, the construction thereof, it's quite a bit different than like a four story five plex. It, it's just a lot more to it. And, and, and it's a different caliber of maybe a different caliber of trade. Definitely a different caliber of process and financing process required. And there's a lot of costs that don't apply to the smaller projects. So, um, yeah, here we are now. We have a lot of mid rises in, in various larger scale projects in the pipeline. And, uh, lots of other things have changed in the business in the last 12, 13 years.
Speaker 0 00:14:06 Amazing. And it all started from reading a book.
Speaker 1 00:14:10 It really did. It really did start with that book, and really one chapter in that book. Really?
Speaker 0 00:14:15 Yes. Amazing.
Speaker 1 00:14:16 I don't know if they're teaching the stuff in schools now. I kind of hope so, but I, I don't know. You know, like yeah, just basic financial and knowledge and, and leveraging things.
Speaker 0 00:14:27 So let's talk about then, um, since you've started per Percy Ellis, or you started this journey sort of speak, um, I, I mentioned in your introduction to date, your over 20 projects. Is that, is that accurate or is it more like 30 in your portfolio now? Um, I'm assuming your, that your typical buy, renovate, refinance and hold. Um, tell us about, I guess, the kind of projects you're involved in and, and what your portfolio consists of.
Speaker 1 00:15:02 Right. So, um, yeah, we're, um, we're really moving the company and, and I, I speak of the company because personally and the company are really, they're kind of the one and the same right now. If you ask me about my, my portfolio, it is my personal investment in this company, Emory and I kind of more or less pooled all of our resources to grow this company. And so, and our, our, the projects we take on are collective decided upon by the two of us. And it's, you know, it's a real family business. So what we do, uh, as Percy Ellis is what, um, how I would answer this, this question. There's, there's, uh, there's really no distinction, you know, for me and, and between me and, and Percy Ellis at this point. And what were, um, doing now is, so we, we, 20 projects is approximately correct, like 25 is probably more, more accurate, uh, in terms of done completed projects.
Speaker 1 00:16:02 And a lot of those are duplexes, triplexes, fourplexes. And, um, then the current portfolio of about 10 or so projects is in the 20 to 200 unit range of, um, mid-rise apartment buildings, um, all in the Leslieville area. So I live here, our office is here, and the projects that we've, uh, acquired and been working on developing over the last half a decade are in the Leslieville area. And, um, they are growing in scale and they're growing in scale because of a change or transformation the company went through, uh, few years ago, which was something around, we had some difficult approvals. Uh, we were in some disagreements with some neighbors about, you know, typical things, height, density, and we didn't work hard enough to get onto the same page with the, with the neighbors. We just didn't. And it stalled the project and it created a little bit of, it was uncomfortable for everybody.
Speaker 1 00:17:13 Like, it's just not fun to be in opposition with, um, a neighborhood. You know, when you're, you, you're trying to improve a neighborhood or a city and you're end up in opposition with that same group, it's just something was feeling really wrong about that process. Um, at the same time, my parents were ill and my parents died. My, my father at the end of 2018, and my mother at the end of 2019, I was very close with both of them. And this sort of, um, totally changed my life as well. And after that, I kind of went, Whoa, I, I really don't want to be fighting or in opposition with people unnecessarily, like it doesn't seem worth it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I really started to figure out that it doesn't need to be that way. You know, like you just need to start to consider everybody and everyone's needs and understand that the needs of one company don't trump the needs of anyone in any neighborhood at any given time.
Speaker 1 00:18:18 It's more of like, you know, taking a bunch of expert opinions and then taking a bunch of emotional viewpoints and combining it all into something that is, you know, balancing all of these needs in a more holistic way and, and actually making sure you're genuinely giving back. You know, if, if you're going in to make a change, that change has to have a positive impact to everybody involved. It can't just be positive impact that you believe it has to be positive impact that everybody sees as positive. So I'm all, this is really important because scale of project helps, um, unlock the ability to give back. It's sort of really small little, it's very difficult, although not impossible to give back when developing like a duplex or a triplex, you can give back in very small ways by making sure you're accommodating to your neighbors, you're open in your line of communication with those around you.
Speaker 1 00:19:19 You're, um, fair with your trades just being a generally good person, talking things through. Um, that's the way you can give back on a smaller project. And it's really important, almost as important as in the other ways that I'll, I, I want to discuss, but in the, the, with the scale of our company growing, we realize the scale of our projects could grow, and then the amount of budget per se, or the amount of resources we could allocate toward, directly contributing back into our communities and accommodating everybody, could be greater, could be bigger, could be bigger dollars. And so that's what drove the scale increase, was just this sort of fundamental realization that to have fun doing this, we wanted to make sure we were not, um, getting into conflicts. And, uh, the scale of the approach would help us do that, fix that problem, and, and that's what drove this, this scale increase.
Speaker 0 00:20:21 Nice. So when you're buying these properties, maybe we can touch upon this. When you're buying these properties, it sounds like most of them are in the right down the GTA there. Yep. Um, that you touched upon. Are you raising capital through, what kind of fund or structure are you raising capital to take part in these things
Speaker 1 00:20:42 On an individual project to project basis? So, um, there's lots of ways to do this. You know, there's, and, and there's really no right or wrong way. Um, my experience was always to focus in on the project, the upcoming acquisition or if you've already acquired it, the, you know, the, um, overall cost of the project through to completion. You know, putting together that plan and looking at it on a per project basis. So dis determining how much capital was needed and, uh, going out and, and discussing with those around me the, um, individual attributes of this project. You know, like, it, it's, it's pretty, I've never really wanted to raise money without an active live project to discuss. Um, it's very hard, you know, if you have a project and you believe in it and you know that it's gonna be successful, like you kind of, you, you're passionate about it because you just know it is gonna be a success.
Speaker 1 00:21:42 It's not a matter of if it's a matter of who's gonna be involved and when is that gonna come to fruition. Like, those questions Sure. Can't be sure about exactly when, can't be sure about exactly who, but you can be sure of your understanding of the project's merits from there. It, it, it's, yeah, you know, with consistency you can raise that, that money. And, uh, so I guess, I guess I would say doing it on a per project basis is what always worked for me because it was material, it was something right there, something tangible. And, uh, very few times in the last 15 years, I sort of have, um, yeah, I guess tried to raise money well in advance, maybe sort of on the concept of a project that's been really hard, much harder. I could probably do it now because like now I have a big track record behind me. It's not, not, not a problem, but it's very hard in the, in the early, going to do something like that.
Speaker 0 00:22:46 So when you're, I guess just for our audience, trying to learn a little bit about Percy Ellis. Are you, is Percy Ellis a company that, um, raises funds and has joint venture partners with your acquisitions or your acquisitions yours and you just seek out hard money lenders to help your buying power or
Speaker 1 00:23:12 No, we've always had equity partners from the beginning, always
Speaker 0 00:23:16 Right from the start.
Speaker 1 00:23:17 So we, we've, um, always, you know, if we've ever acquired something just on our own with our own resources, it, it's, uh, been rare and it's just been a timing issue and we've quickly brought in partners after the fact. Uh, but in the early going for sure, we just, yeah, we didn't close on anything without a partner. Um, we didn't, we didn't come from, uh, history in this business or wealthy families, so it wasn't an option to do anything else else, but that, and, and we, yeah, we maintain our partnerships. Uh, like to this day our, our projects are held in partnership with, with our investors or at times when investors, um, want a shorter time horizon, will, um, switch them out with other investors, you know, if we can come to agreement on such a thing.
Speaker 0 00:24:07 Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I just wanted to get clarity on that. Obviously, like our company as well, we joined Venture Partner, um, which has helped us scale our portfolio enormously over the last several years. You and I had a quick chat about that off air when we started, but, uh, yeah, I just wanted to kind of put it out there that, um, obviously equity partners are needed in your business as well to continue to scale and grow and so on and so forth. And I imagine given the areas of Toronto, you mentioned to me like Leslieville and some other, um, well, to do areas, your price points are obviously a lot more than our price points, for example, than Hamilton, where we have one of our acquisitions. Obviously your areas are, are far supreme per se, Um, and your price tag's probably a lot more. Um, can you tell us basically, um, when you take a project, obviously similar to us, you're, you're, you're investing in something that needs some construction, you're, you're transforming it from a duplex to a plex or a fourplex and whatnot, your end goal, for example, your exit of your acquisitions for Percy Ellis.
Speaker 0 00:25:27 What kind of, um, what kind of future or or projection do you see in your end goal? So for example, I'll tell you about our end goal. We typically are extracting on the refinance of these properties for our company. We're looking at anywhere between 85% to a hundred percent of all the capital we put in. And again, different marketplace, be it the city of Hamilton, we look to extract at least 85 up to all of the capital we put in the project, uh, on the exit. Yep. Now, obviously price points are different in Toronto and whatnot. What, what's kind of your flavor out there?
Speaker 1 00:26:10 Well, been a while since we've looked at anything in the 2, 2, 3, 4 unit, um, range, you know, quite a while. And, uh, we don't have any of those in the pipe right now. Um, and it's, um, the, you know, it's, it's the pointing out the price point is important because as cap rates in an area shrink, the ability to refinance, um, gets dip, refinance out, capital gets harder and harder like that, that ship sailed in Vancouver long time ago. Yeah, we can't do that cuz the cap rate were, were too compressed and we're basically there, uh, in Toronto as well. Um, now if you're an individual and you are doing up to four units, that's good because you can acquire CMHC refinancing, um, which, you know, maybe your company utilizes, maybe not if you're a COR corporate entity, you can do five or more units through cmhc.
Speaker 1 00:27:08 But the problem is where you're a corporate entity doing less than than than five or an individual doing more than, um, more than five. Actually, I don't know if that's an issue. I've never been in that boat. I only know that a corporate entity can't acquire CMHC refinancing on a project with less than five units. Right. This is a significant thing because in Toronto you need CMHC financing to even contemplate any kind of recapture of equity at completion. So, um, it's right now in these market conditions, it's not really possible to recapture equity, um, on like something like a two to four unit, um mm-hmm <affirmative>, unless you're using cmhc. And even then it has to be very creative as the challenge. So that leads a lot of, uh, these smaller scale developers to look to sell these assets at completion because you can, you can make a profit.
Speaker 1 00:27:59 That's not the problem necessarily. Problem isn't the profit, it's there if you sell, but keeping it and extracting equity is, is a lot harder. Is, uh, much more, more difficult. Um, and you know, with 25 projects in our past, um, we've also seen that it does honestly gets harder and hard. You think it gets easier and easier to predict the outcome of these projects, but it actually gets harder and harder because you can see through the history that your predictions are, you just, some go exactly as you want them to and some don't, and everything in between and for every different reason in the world. And so, um, what I, I kind of like lately really want to go back to my roots of why I started doing this in the very beginning, which was is around that recession issue in 2008, 2009, where, um, that house that I first fixed up was losing money, monthly handover fist.
Speaker 1 00:29:00 And I was getting very worried and nervous about it. And we went into this rental and the rental idea was not to, it was a, it was like, what happens if things aren't there to sell at a profit? You can just, um, you can sit back and, and wait and see what happens without worrying about losing your shirts. You know, and that's sort of, Kelly almost come full circle in this business is kind of the approach to some extent you need to take at any scale in the rental, construction, um, and development business, which is you can't be sure based, it's so sensitive to rates and market conditions, can't be sure of the outcome, but you can, can be sure that you'll have an asset that that has cash flow that allows you to survive in the event that when you do complete, you're not sitting on an ability to refinance out capital or an ability to sell at the profit you were, you were hoping for.
Speaker 1 00:29:57 And so if, if, if those in the audience or if anyone goes into the project, just knowing that that's a realistic, um, outcome and you could, in some ways you could call that your downside outcome where you, you can't necessarily refinance out your funds. You can't necessarily sell and get out, but you're not in a, you're not in a problematic situation. And that's a pretty big deal when there is upside there that can be significant. Um, and it's quite a bit different than a, you know, home builder who's downside in a bad situation can be a lot worse, where you can't cash flow enough to sustain yourself during bad times.
Speaker 0 00:30:37 Right? So for most of your projects than past present is your exit strategy to sell them for a profit or to hold them with your investors.
Speaker 1 00:30:51 So in the beginning it was to sell them because we didn't have a track record and that was the basis of the original business. But over time we saw that, um, every asset we sold would typically double in value in the years following that. And, and, uh, we would realize that the, um, the asset owners who bought, bought the completed assets from us would end up being the real winners in the whole, you know, in, in from that perspective. So we realized we, we really needed to start holding these assets, um, quite a long time ago. We realized that. So our goal is always to hold them, but then that's just a goal. There's also the considerations of, uh, partners, market conditions, business needs, et cetera, et cetera. So it's, it's, uh, it's our goal. It's not always the reality, right? And our, our current, um, we're having kind of like these two discussions.
Speaker 1 00:31:50 One sort of, I'm trying to put myself into my shoes in the past because the questions are, are my, my past self is better suited to answer some of these questions. And then, um, my current self kind of goes, our goal to hold these assets is a lot, it is a lot to do with the doing, like doing no harm to our communities because when we go in and, and discuss with neighborhoods and neighbors and business associations and um, neighborhood groups, um, it's really great to be able to have those conversations when you're gonna be the long term owner of the asset because you can actually make commitments that are real, that you can actually stick to. And, um, you can stand behind. But if you are selling these assets, it's harder to have those conversations because you can't be sure about the, uh, you know, the impact that you're building will have long term.
Speaker 1 00:32:46 Because if you're not gonna be involved in it into the middle to long term future, you know, do you really have, uh, the, the right to have those, You have to, uh, you can't have quite the same conversation, different, different type of conversation has to happen. And so it's, it's been really nice for us knowing that our goal on all of our future and current projects is to hold them long term. And also, of course, our partners are on side with that goal, whereas the partners that we had at the beginning 10 years ago weren't not because cuz we didn't ask them to be. So, um, you certainly have to have that alignment with your partnership group to make those commitments.
Speaker 0 00:33:29 Awesome. Over the last couple of years, Toronto has been a prime target to the idea of missing middle housing.
Speaker 1 00:33:39 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 0 00:33:41 And James has displayed his passion to solving it through multiple media outlets cause or tell our audience what's the missing middle and how is this affecting the Toronto real estate world?
Speaker 1 00:33:56 Hmm. Yeah, it's a great subject. You know, there's so much literature and so many podcasts and discussions and academic discussions around this. And, um, my take on the missing middle is it's, it's pretty simple. There's, um, city centers like Toronto and any city center, Hamilton's, Miss Saga, even small towns everywhere has city center. And they usually have, well, the larger city centers have some form of public transit buses if you're Toronto, Subways street cars, but other municipalities also have public transit. Um, the city centers usually have a downtown with parks, with amenities, et cetera. And what makes sense is to increase density in these areas because of the tremendous amount of infrastructure and the tremendous amount of amenity and, um, access to those amenities. And then what sort of happened though is the density limitations surrounding the city centers have been maybe a little too, uh, restrictive for the last a hundred years.
Speaker 1 00:34:57 And so you get the same general density in many neighborhoods surrounding city centers as you do way further out into the suburbs where there are no walkable amenities at all, where there's very little infrastructure, there's no public transit and, and you're 100% car dependent. So the missing middle is the idea that close to walkable communities, close to communities, packed full of public transit, infrastructure, amenities, stores, shops, you should be increasing the density to something that maybe isn't the highrise, uh, density that might be right at a subway stop, for example, but is also not restricted to, you know, single family homes or duplexes. It should be something in between and that something should be unlocked to a much greater extent than it currently is. And it will provide housing, it will make use of existing infrastructure. It will create, um, happier communities because of walkability, because many, many, many studies, and this isn't as well known as it should be, or seems to me as someone who studies these things, that walkable communities create happy communities, create safe communities, uh, reduce mental health illness, increase physical, um, health of members of those communities and isolated suburban communities that are not walkable, that no one gets outta their house and walks anywhere.
Speaker 1 00:36:18 You jump in a car no matter whether you're going to the, the nearest store, the nearest park, the nearest recreation center, it has a serious, can have a serious mental health impact and a physical health impact. So missing middle is all about, um, fixing this problem. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:36:40 Amazing. Yeah. Makes total sense to me. And obviously you're, you're the man with all that experience behind you now after you've been in this business for quite a while. So as we come to the end, obviously you have a ton of experience and transformations of these properties in Toronto, some very wealthy areas in Toronto for that matter. Um, and, um, the whole development side of things and working with cities and communities and whatnot. I gotta ask you though, and I, we ask everybody as we come to a conclusion in the show, um, be it the More to Life Real Estate investing podcast, I ask you, when you picture more to life, do you picture more? And what is more to life for you, James?
Speaker 1 00:37:36 More to life? Uh, <laugh> more to life for me is definitely, um, different, uh, different. There's a deep question and it's probably more to life is less for me. Uh, something that's like a little more simple, um, family and relationships and my wife and my dogs and, and, uh, the people around me. Um, and, um, taking a breath and just, um, not getting too caught up in everything. Just, um, you know, recognizing that life will go on regardless. Um, and, you know, applying all this stress and pressure to one's self on a daily basis, uh, doesn't necessarily actually improve anything. It doesn't necessarily make your performance at what you're trying to accomplish any better, if anything worse, it doesn't, It's not the thing that helps you with anything. It's just the thing that causes you some mental distress. And so recognizing that, just taking a breath, taking a step back and eh, looking at what you can realistically accomplish in a day or a week and focusing in on that, on exactly that and not all the a hundred things that feel like grabbing, like grabbing at your attention, grabbing at your, your, your, your, your consciousness.
Speaker 1 00:39:11 Just so yeah. More to life is for me is just sort of living in that, that space where you're just, um, recognizing that, yeah, like performance and, and pressure aren't, they're not as interconnected and related as I think people generally maybe assume or think or, and you can kind of disconnect those things and, and, um, live just more peacefully and contribute back to those around you in the exact same way. Right? If you're not living that crazy pressure stressed existence, you can cause those around you to take a breath as well. And, uh, enjoy this time, it's time here on this earth a bit more. And, uh, and, and ultimately, I, I very, very firmly believe that when you're rooted in this place of a little bit more calm and those around you, you can, you end up being more creative and more productive and, and more good things come out of that, um, way of life, you know, than, than do and, and then do the seeking out of more, you know, so more to life.
Speaker 1 00:40:34 Obviously it can mean anything to anybody, right? It doesn't necessarily mean like more money or more, um, material things definitely doesn't, to me it means more enjoyment, more peace, more, um, rubbing off on others in that same way. And, um, ultimately with our projects, I know what we're doing is gonna contribute to more happy and healthy communities and, and a place where people can live a happier life. Because every detail that we think of as we build these buildings has got to do with what we believe and what we've heard from our communities will contribute back to the wellbeing of the people that will ultimately live there. Because we may be a developer, but we're, even if we own the asset for a long time, um, we're not the ones who live there, so we have to put them first and think about them by far the most and, and good things come of that.
Speaker 0 00:41:39 Absolutely. I, I think that's an amazing answer. You know, I asked that question at the end of it each show to every guest, and I've gotten people saying, for me more life is owning a jet and flying away tomorrow, getting on a plane my own private jet like Grand Cardone and flying away to wherever I want to be tomorrow to the extreme opposite. And you're the extreme opposite, basically saying, for me, more life is just enjoying what I have or taking that time and so on and so forth. So yeah, it really is more life is really, really is just very specific to that person. Like I said, I've gotten one extreme to the other, which is always fascinating to hear because I mean, at the end of the day, we're all in this for, we're all real estate investors and one fashion or another, people listening to the show are either in it, doing it at an entry level, high level, we're all, you know, part and parcel real estate investors. So the mindset behind each of us, essentially it differs right from like your answer to the typical grand card, Don't answer where I want to have my own jet. Yeah. And everything in between. So there is no right or wrong answer, but I think that's amazing regardless. So
Speaker 1 00:43:01 I love to be an extreme. I'm so glad I'm on, on extreme, doesn't matter what, what I I seem to always be on the extreme of something and it's, uh, thanks for putting that out. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:43:11 Awesome. Well, James, people out there that want to get ahold of you, how do they find you and how do they connect with you? Uh, should they want to talk to you, potentially even do business together one day?
Speaker 1 00:43:23 Sure. Percy Ellis Instagram, uh, or, or check out our website, www do percys.com or email me at j burton percy ellis.com. Um, yeah, always open to chat with anyone about anything. Um, Awesome. Yeah, so, absolutely. Um, thanks for asking and welcome anyone to reach out anytime.
Speaker 0 00:43:46 Awesome. All right, well, we're just over that 40, 42 minute mark, so we're gonna end the show here. Great episode. Thanks for all the knowledge and experience and your story in this game of, uh, development and whatnot. And, uh, I'm sure someone will reach out to you and, uh, who knows where, take the conversation to, to where it may go and potentially do business together.
Speaker 1 00:44:11 Absolutely. Let's do a, let's do a coffee in the flesh sometime, Adrian.
Speaker 0 00:44:15 Absolutely, for sure. All right, James, I'll just get, uh, end here and then I'll get you going. Cheers. All
Speaker 1 00:44:23 Right.
